34 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Albert, this is a great topic. And I, for one, think you’ve done a great job in covering it.

    Re: the conversation with Andrea… I’d echo the point that everyone goes through what they need to go through, and that it’s not for us to judge it as bad, or try to take that away from them. And, if we can be unattached to outcome, without judgment, but simply offer a loving hand (like you said, “be there for them”), then perhaps we can be another part of their learning — that compassion is real, that they can receive, etc. — without throwing our own beliefs on them.

    As a teacher of mine once said, “be the evidence of a loving god in their lives.”

    I also like how you talk about how “removal of suffering” can lead to emptiness. How stereotypical is the story of the child of wealthy parents who grows up without resourcefulness, drive, or passionate curiosity?

    Great points, UM. And thanks for the kind words about my work; much appreciated. :-)

  2. Thanks Adam. Love that quote - be the evidence of a loving god. This was a tricky topic to cover, without falling into some nasty traps - “you mean it’s okay to let my friend get beat up by her boyfriend?!” - so I’m glad it came through alright, and that you support it. Thanks for affirming my path, fellow monk ;) . Keep up the good work on your blog, I learn so much from it.

  3. Only lately have I discovered the information that our suffering comes from resistance to that suffering. Now it is one of those messages that shows up over and over again. As with other lessons, when I “get” it, the lessons won’t continue to be in my face.

    Thanks for the link love that you keep sharing. I am discovering some really great blogs by checking them out. I have already subscribed to some of them.

  4. Great read…helps people stop their self-pity and realize we wouldn’t be strong people with original personalities and fears/loves/wants if we didn’t experience what we have gone through…but sometimes people need a little help, whether that’s shielding them from something idk, but I guess that’s part of the growing process in life.

  5. Matt, the way that I see it, is you can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, or you can teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. If he refuses to learn how to fish, then at least you will have caught enough to share with him while you were trying.

    It is hard for me to deal with my own personal suffering. I much prefer to help solve other people’s suffering, because I’m not the one suffering. It gives me a great ego boost which makes me feel good for a little while. If I get over the ego boost, then I can also apply the lessons I’ve learned to my own life… Of course, I’m standing on very unstable ground when I do this, because if the ego boost is too great, I learn absolutely nothing. To go back to my analogy, it would be like teaching a man to fish, then going hungry myself because I’m so much better than my student that I don’t need to pick up the fishing rod. (There are many times that I’ve done that, believe me.)

    Maybe giving a person a fish, rather than teaching them to fish, is the better route, because their desire to learn to fish will be stronger when they’re hungry again. Maybe teaching them to fish before giving in and just handing them a fish is better, because they’ll have the experience to get through rough times when they’re hungry again. I don’t have the perspective to know which is better, because I don’t know in advance if someone will want to learn or not.

    All that I can do is be there, and if someone is foolish enough to learn from me, maybe we’ll both learn something. Nobody can decide to overcome suffering except for the sufferer.

  6. Everyone, thanks for affirming and supporting my words ;) I’m really loving all this discussion, please keep it up.

  7. Barbara

    Adam, I, too, went through the helping others with their suffering as a preference. I just had to say something here because I saw so much of myself in your comment.

    How much awareness did you have in realizing what your help actually was? That alone an important learning, admission. Granted, the lesson might be viewed as the hard way, to see where you might be doing a disservice to yourself or even all the way around.

    But then you know. Really know. And isn’t it our own personal knowing that each of us pursues? I generally would not make a comment like this, I don’t see it as my function any longer pointing things out to others. But it was so parallel to my own experience I thought I could view it as sharing. Hope you do too!

    As far as the fishing or feeding or teaching, I think they all have value at various times for each participant. If I think about it very practically, I wouldn’t be eating fish if there weren’t a market somewhere selling them. But I did learn how to fish and do know how.

  8. Albert,

    Once again you demonstrate your depth of character through your self-inquiry.

    Suffering is a state of mind. We identify with the “need” to suffer and we suffer. I believe the paradigm of “no pain, no gain” may be a bit overrated.

    Byron Katie was informing the woman that she was not suffering, her mind was. There are many examples of those who live with debilitating illnesses and simply choose not to suffer. The power of the mind is boundless.

    Victor Frankl lessened or alleviated his suffering in Aushwitz through allowing his mind to encompass a greater purpose or meaning to his life and the joy of that personal “meaning” made the difference between life and death.

    In a sense, resistance to suffering reinforces the presence of suffering. If I choose not to suffer, what is there to resist?
    I certainly have experienced personal suffering, so on one level I do agree that suffering is part of the human experience.

    However, I sense that what people like Byron Katie are trying to teach is that suffering does NOT have to be a part of the human experience. Maybe the lesson we have acquired from all our past suffering is simply learning that we never needed to suffer…

    Good Essay!

    Mike S

  9. Hi, Albert,
    :) I’ve been thinking of this post all day. I agree with you about our loved ones…when my daughter was little and was upset by some event part of me was hurting with her, but a bigger part was glad it was happening while she was still at home with supportive parents. My husband and I both believed that one of our main jobs as parents was to give her opportunities to develop life skills. And part of that was to make sure she wasn’t “under-deprived”. That means we didn’t spoil her with material goods but gave her chances to earn some of the things she wanted. We also had a lot of projects that we worked on together as a family. It gave us all a feeling of accomplishment at the time as well as treasured memories.

    Thank you for the kind words and link. I really appreciate it.

  10. Hi Albert,

    What a beautiful, beautiful post. And thank you so much for the very kind mention - I so appreciate it!

    As I was reading your article, a quote that I’ve been drafting a blog post on came to mind:

    “Everything is the perfect expression of that which it is.”

    I think that’s by David Hawkins.

    Thank you again!
    Blessings,
    Andrea

  11. It’s true. People have such huge egos, it completely controls what they do with their lives. You got to live by your principles and your means and don’t make yourself a slave in a quest of acquiring materialistic desires just so you can feel like you are better than the next guy.

  12. Thank you everyone, I really appreciate you guys as well. Thanks for making this website, not just a blog, but an actual little community. I love sitting here and reading your contributions, hearing from all the different human experiences, and learning from your wisdom.

    I wanted to make a special comment to Mike: I’ve read some “hidden” less popularised works by Katie: All suffering, even the most shocking worldwide events, can be avoided on an emotional level. That’s what some of the teachers are trying to say, but the world is not ready for their message and so they tone it down. But I think you guys are ready to hear it, you’re so advanced and open minded. I’m leaving it out of the main article though.

  13. I have to agree that “suffering” is all in the mind.

    Recently, I was talking to a gentleman who works for a group that provides shelter to people displaced from their homes by natural disasters and civil unrest.

    He tells countless stories of communities he has visited that have returned to “normal” life within days of what most would consider devastating life changes.

    People who have lost loved ones mourn then become thankful for those who were spared. Communities who lost all shelter become grateful to have tents and blankets that were donated by others.

    Children especially resume playing, even in piles of rubble, soon after their “suffering” should begin, simply because they don’t know they are supposed to suffer.

    Suffering is a choice, although not always a “bad” one. There is much to be learned about oneself and one’s attachments, both physical and emotional, through the perception of suffering.

    Like all things that come to us, perhaps we can be grateful for those moments and the truth they bring us.

  14. Wow Laura - I love that story. especially the part about the children who had resumed playing, because they didn’t know they were supposed to suffer. Wow.

    Thank you for sharing.

  15. Albert,

    Thoughtful post, as usual. You are right. As painful as it is, suffering is necessary for growth. We learn to be aware of the source of suffering, and learn to stop causing it.

    There is an old Henny Youngman joke:
    A man goes to the doctor. He says, “Doctor, it hurts when I do this. The doctor says, “Don’t do that.” Well, it’s funnier when he says it, but there’s some wisdom there.

    The common man learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others. It is wise to be always researching into the ways of the spirit. By doing so we can intelligently learn and bypass the clumsy way constant repetition of misery causing mistakes.

    Perhaps you and your readers would enjoy the post, A Yogi’s Recommended Reading List.

    ReddyK

  16. Heya ReddyK,

    Thanks for coming by and sharing that. And I agree, always good to research into the spirit. I believe that external changes (changes in actions, for example) don’t mean a thing unless they are accompanied by a shift in consciousness.

    Will check out your list now ;)

  17. Albert:

    I truly believe that yes, suffering is a part of life but I think it’s optional. We can learn from it or we can choose to dwell and thrive on it. That’s my take on it.

    But the problem is how do we know how to make those choices? Through elevating our level of awareness which can take many years. It took a major reawakening in my life to make me realize that suffering is a state of mind and that I have choices. But it also made me realize that everything happens for a reason and that there is much learning in the process.

    And lastly but not least, I realize that we are all spiritual beings having a human experience. Our souls purposefully chose to be in the body that we are in in order to experience some growht lessons that can only be experienced on the physical realm. This is why we go through the things we experience so that we can become who we are meant to be.

    Great post - very well written. Very nice. I enjoyed it.

  18. Hi Stephen,

    Thanks for the insight. The problem you mentioned I don’t know either. I’ve been having many discussions with other bloggers about the same thing. How do we begin the journey to elevate our consciousness? What makes someone move away from suffering, and the other wallow? You might say it is self esteem, etc, but how do we begin to move from low self esteem to high? What is the turning point, and why / how do we reach it?

    I might put this up as a discussion post.

    Thanks, Albert.

  19. Albert:

    You bring up interesting points in your reply to my comments. I think, at least for me, the journey to higher consciousness really begins before we’re born but it doesn’t pop up to our conscious awareness unless we have some form of major life change to “wake-up.” For me I “woke up” after a night of heavy drinking that made me sick for days. I looked at my life and realized I was just floating along, not participating in the full sense of the word.

    For others, it could be a major illness or a car accident or death in the family. This is the suffering you’re referring to. In some interesting sort of way, the suffering, while optional, can be a useful “wake-up” tool.

    Makes for very interesting discussion, doesn’t it? :)

  20. I have a friend who has turned suffering into an art. Many call her a drama queen. She hates it that people call her that but doesn’t make any change to make the name go away. Fear is what keeps her stuck in the drama. She knows the rut she is in. She is comfortable with it. She fears the unknown. She fears change because she might have to grow. She gets something out of staying where she is. Our friendship has changed over the past 2 years because I am making changes, growing and moving forward. She stays where she is and is currently doing her rage mode. She makes everything that goes wrong her husband’s fault. It isn’t and I have told her so. She doesn’t want to hear me so we are not as close as we once were.

  21. Albert, I think it was an excellent post, but I have to disagree with you on something you said… what if we were keeping them from learning their lessons?

    Well, it’s possible, of course… but then again, you might BE the lesson, you might be the one providing the information they need in order to learn, so I don’t necessarily think you should withdraw and only remain silent.

    For instance, I’ve had a few people write to me and ask about specific problems in their relationships… I could remain silent, and let them learn their lesson on their own. My other choice is to provide them with the information that I have, that allows them to learn the lesson from this thing that life threw at them, instead of having to get hit with it over and over again.

    Again, I think the article is excellent, and makes me think, but I think the answer is not to be silent… my answer is to be there for when they seek help. Many times that help may first be silence (listening, acknowledging, and accepting them without judgment), but after the silence, it’s good to be ready with whatever more active help you can provide… when they seek it.

  22. When I teach stress management I present ideas rather than give advice. I assume we’re all different and have to figure out what works for us as individuals. But so much has been written and tried on the subject it’s foolish not to share that information.

    Great topic. :)

  23. @ Stephen: One thing I noticed was that suffering seems to be the common wake up call. It was the same for me too. But I was wondering if there is another way, so people like us can be more effective in what we are doing. Yes, great convo ;)

    @ Patricia: I think many people are like that. What I’ve concluded is that I just need to give them silent support, instead of trying to tell them to do something. I don’t know if my approach is the right one or not, though. This ties in very closely with my conversation with Stephen, above.

    @ Jason: Thanks :D . Yes, I believe that advice is okay as well, as long as it is not egoic and prideful. As mentioned, I believe in just offering help, in whatever they have to do. Sometimes it is healing, sometimes it is advice, sometimes it is to get them out of there. In the previous articles, I said it is better to remain silent, unless you know what you are talking about. In this article, I expanded that a little to say give whatever help you can (besides advice, unless you’ve been thru it). Hope that makes sense, I’m not sure if I’m making sense myself ;)

    @ Jean: A very nice way of putting it, once again. Presenting ideas… you really have a great way of describing things. Thanks.

  24. Albert,

    You and Stephen were discussing suffering and the possibility of a discussion post regarding it. I look forward to it, as I have some comments which would be lost in all these other valuable comments.

  25. Hey ReddyK, thanks for that. I’m not sure when the next collaboration between me and Stephen will be coming up, could be a while away. It should be OK to leave the comments here, the latest ones are displayed first ;)

  26. Albert and everyone else:

    It’s been one very interesting discussion and I was glad to be a part of it. Did you all read the interview I did with Albert over at Adversity Univesity blog? My readers loved it so much that I’m thinking of turning it into a series, a “Scholarly Visit” kind of program.

    Anyway, back to the issue at hand. I’ve been looking at the comments here and I want to say that I understand what Albert has been trying to say with regards to leaving things to be when soemone is having a struggle with something.

    When someone is experiencing a life lesson, I believe in being available to support that person emotionally if they ask for it as long as we don’t become enablers. Because they need to learn whatever it is they’re going through. They put themselves there whether they like to think so or not.

    For instance. Homeless people begging on the streets. Do you give them money? If so, aren’t you enabling them? What if instead of giving money, you actually sit down and talk with that person, give him/her hope and inspiration? Do that instead of giving money and/or ignoring the person. Pretty radical huh?

    That’s my take. Cheers!

  27. Thanks for the thought Stephen, I’ve never thought of taking it to that level before - that we are encouraging the homeless to stay homeless. Hmm… very radical indeed!

  28. One of the hardest things about going to India is having to deal with the beggars. Many of them are beggars for a living and have a pimp that most of the money goes to. The Indian government tells you not to give money to the beggars. Sai Baba says if you give anything, make it food. Many of the beggars around the ashram now ask for food instead. If you give to one, then you get swarmed by many others. It can be heart wrenching because you want to help and can’t.

  29. Hey Patricia - I know how you feel. I was in a few other countries for holidays and its the same thing. I heard they (the pimps) kidnap or take homeless kids and cripple them ON PURPOSE, and leave them out there to beg. And the pimps get all the money, from the people they crippled. It’s inhuman.

  30. This reply is to Patricia of Spiritual Journey Of A Lightworker. I once experienced the beggars in Mexico. It was a surreal experience. I was literally mobbed with poor children who wanted money. It was definitely heart-wretching.

  31. If we choose to view everything as “experience,” and resist the temptation to permit emotions to take control and fragment it into “good” or “bad,” then we eliminate any concept of suffering. We can choose to love everything and everyone and rise above any negative energy that would hold us back from progress toward higher awareness and heightened sensitivities.

  32. Hey Liara - that’s brilliant. I agree totally.

  33. This was a great post. Thank you for reading the article and for taking the time to write such an extensive comment.

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