49 Comments, Comment or Ping

  1. Cyrano

    Dear Al,

    Another great post about being happier with life, and getting rid of all the negative vibes. More scientific than the usual spiritual ones, but me being a geek, I love it!

    - CY

  2. another great insightful article. have you ever thought of publishing a podcast. sometimes it is really hard to read your lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng articles. :P

  3. Hi Albert,
    thanks for the link love… not as what I have expected
    yet, I appreciate it very much, thank you so much =)

    Have a great day,
    Robert

  4. @ Cy: Thanks, glad you like the new psychological approach. :D

    @ Sam: Haha, I have thought about making a podcast, but I can’t be bothered sometimes. I like writing so much more than I like speaking. ;)

    @ Robert: You’re welcome mate!

  5. Great article.

    CBT is awesome. I used the book “Mind Over Mood” (available at Amazon), which provides a very simple, easy-to-learn method for quickly learning and using CBT in your life.

    One thing to keep in mind is to keep it simple. CBT is great but in my experience it is fairly limited in what it can do. I found it very useful for processing “incorrect” emotions such as anger and guilt, especially as they related to my depression, but it wasn’t very useful for dealing with the underlying issues that were causing my depression. For that I needed therapy. However, for the “why did he say that, he must really hate me” moments, CBT was a Godsend.

  6. Hi Albert,

    Sort of. There is more to our experience than what we are currently conscious of. We know this because we can become aware of something - such as hearing our name - that we weren’t listening for.

    The question with CBT is how we can know reality. If our reaction is determined by our beliefs where is reality in the equation.
    “CBT is rather about finding a perception that is as rational and realistic as possible.” How can we know this when the judgement is based on our feeling good - the consequences?

    Then there is the ethical dilemma. If we can feel however we like about anything is this advocating that people feel delighted to be abused (a career in advertising beckons?).

    I’m not saying that CBT is useless. It can be very useful - especially with phobias. But it’s underlying philosophy is trivial. And it is often neurotic - advice to get control of your emotions and so on. The idea that we can control ourselves by controlling our thoughts is simply not so: if it were this easy we’d all be in nirvana by now.

    As to it’s effectiveness. It’s about as effective as any other therapy. As to the effectiveness of therapy - it’s to do with the relationship between the client and therapist: the theory they have doesn’t matter much.

    Our thoughts are not nearly as sovereign as CBT makes out. Funny that it’s so popular with academics don’t you think?

  7. Evan and Scott, thank you so much for your comments! I guess I have to qualify what exactly I’ve been using CBT with. Like you said, there are events and times where CBT is useful, but there are times when they don’t work at all. This is why I put in the section about the emotional work - I’ve found that a combination of those two, personally, have allowed me to overcome almost anything. Emotional Work is still my first preference, just that it takes quite a while and sometimes we need to take action now.

    As mentioned, I saved CBT for the little things, but my eyes were only opened to what it can do when it got me out of a relapse into depression a while back. I guess a follow up post is in order, so thank you for voicing this out.

    Evan, making our judgements based on feeling good is how many recommend using it, but I try not to as a matter of personal preference. I simply try to keep things in perspective - my anger at the rude commenter, for example, remained - because it had hit a few other issues. I also let myself have the appropriate hurt and anger - I doubt there would be many people who wouldn’t be upset by such comments.

    But no longer was I contemplating quitting blogging, no longer was I going to implement a new comments policy and posting a strong warning to that effect, etc, etc. Those actions stemmed from inappropriate anger.

    As such, I don’t really believe in CBT for true emotional control - I love it for its effect on our behaviour. In my experimentation, I’ve found that it reduces the afflictive emotions (again, the distinction between appropriate and inappropriate) to a certain extent, and represses the rest. Again, I prefer to mix in some emotional work.

    The ethical dilemma is fantastic - but again it goes to appropriate / inappropriate emotions. (Another post idea, you are a legend!) For instance, if we forget to call someone back and they get upset, we could use CBT to say that it is not 100% our fault and they are overreacting. Of course this doesn’t take the blame away but it does stop someone from beating themselves up anymore than they should. I used to overreact in this way, and become a doormat over a minor mistake. But it would be inappropriate to say that since they are in control of their own feelings, I have done nothing by raping and killing and stealing from them.

    Not sure about therapy as my own experience in this area is very limited.

    Thanks to both of you, for such stimulating comments!

  8. Hi Albert,

    I would love to see the post on on in/appropriate emotions. Hope you can do it soon.

    Thanks for a great post and responding too.

  9. Commonsensekid

    Bottom line is>> Smooth running reality goes at the speed and quality of educated freewill choices…think positively faster than reality can happen…while coasting in you’re previously well thought out action thought patterns…leave God out of the picture…really it’s all about you…once you get the goodness momentum going, then it’s about all those that surround you’re creative thought force of truth, beauty & goodness out~put.

  10. @ Evan: Thank you again :D

    @ Common Sense Kid: Thank you as well!

  11. Dear Albert -

    Yes, a long article but worth it.

    I tuned in with the bad comments section. I got three like that on Stumble. On a very innocuous article. I could not believe it. Really upset me and of course what’s to do about it?

    I decided nothing. Then I got about 7000 hits on the article. People came to see how terrible it was. You never know until you experience it that even bad publicity is good.

    As for the rest of the process, what was coming to mind was the famous quote from A Course in Miracles.

    “You are never upset for the reason you think.”

  12. Albert, I don’t agree that our emotions are either appropriate or inappropriate. The way that we react to our feelings can be appropriate or inappropriate but the feelings themselves are neither. They just are. I still thought this was a great article. Sometimes it needs to be long to get the point or points across. I printed this out and read it at the dentist office where I went with a friend this morning. Then I passed the article on to her to read.

  13. Hi Patricia,

    I sort of agree. Our emotions are what they are.

    And due to choices we make and practices we follow we can have a different (emotional) reaction to roughly the same situation. This then raises the question of which reaction we prefer. There is some kind of choice (over time) about which (emotional) reactions we experience. This leads to some kind of evaluation of them.

  14. @ Corinne: Yeah negative comments really sting the first couple of times, don’t they? But relax - very often it is a reflection on them (unless of course their accusations are valid), plus the anonymous nature of the Internet allows them to act out their less polite instincts. I’m always happy to have you here :D

    @ Patricia and Evan: Thanks for that (and for spreading my articles around! :D ), you’ve really given me a lot to think about. I am rethinking my position on this. I am still not sure what to say at this point, but rest assured I’ll incorporate your and Evan’s sentiments into my follow up posts ;)

    I would love to hear what you both think about my definition of appropriate / inappropriate emotions. For instance, I am reminded of an incident many years ago (my reactions could have been influenced by my depression then).

    I said something that might have hurt a friend’s feelings. I didn’t realise it until I was driving home afterwards. I was overcome with guilt that was way out of proportion - even if it was hurtful, it was something minor. And yet I reacted as if I had ran over her cat or something.

    My definition of appropriate emotions would be a feeling that encouraged me to call, find out and make amends if I had hurt her. Inappropriate was what I felt - I apologised profusely (over a statement she didn’t even remember) and pretty much made a fool of myself. This behaviour and feeling lasted for nearly 2 weeks.

    Hope that sheds a bit of light on what I mean when I say appropriate vs. inappropriate. Would love to hear what you think.

  15. Hi Albert,

    I can identify with your example very much. I was and still feel socially gauche.

    The out of proportion nature of the response (as I’m pretty sure you’ll agree) indicates something important is going on.

    Most of the time socially acceptable and helpful is good enough. But we can probably all think of times when it is beneficial to break social taboos. (This is a westerner speaking of course. Those cultures where social conformity is valued more highly may have a different perspective. I hasten to add that I don’t think this makes them less welcoming to individuality - this gets complex).

    Here’s a sketch of my approach (which I guess would take several Ph.D’s to defend). The good contributes to the greater whole. The bad destroys the whole. Thus nurture and hospitality are good and violence and hostility are bad. The bad equates to: physically, violence; intellectually, reductionism; values, nihilism and spiritually, malevolence. Thus good emotions are those which contribute to nurture and hospitality. This may well embrace anger - the old forms may need to be destroyed as they are no longer promoting life. For me the evaluation is on the direction of energy - contribution etc or destruction etc.

    I have thought about this lots.

    In my experience when people are in a supportive environment where it is safe to make mistakes, where needs are met and it is possible to have a ’safe emergency’ then people can reach integration. This to my way of thinking has contributions from all parts of our being (my brief description of which is physical, emotional, mental and spiritual - all of which have individual and social dimensions).

    This is already a long comment. But that’s my response on appropriate and inappropriate emotions, as briefly as I can put it. Hope there is some clarity in their somewhere!
    Evan

  16. Tao

    Great (if long) post.

    You should make an e-book out of this!

  17. @ Evan: Definitely, something important was going on. It was linked to my abandonment issues (the cause of my then depression and something I am working on very hard right now), so something minor like that was blown out of proportion.

    My understanding of your comment is that any emotion that contributes, even if superficially “bad” like anger, is worthy. And any emotion that destroys, even if superficially “good” like happiness (maybe the pleasure a rapist gets?), is undesirable? Am I off the mark?

    As always I appreciate your wisdom here.

    @ Tao: Thanks mate! I’m actually in discussions with an ebook designer now, but I’m struggling with myself regarding how to make it available to my readers - free (like my current one), purchased (like everyone else), or a compromise (an honor system - donate if it helps). It all depends on the quote he gives me on making the ebook I guess ;)

  18. Albert, I have read your comment and example several times and I still say that you are labeling emotions as good or bad instead of your actions that stem from those emotions. I am not an expert in this area by any means. This is just my opinion.

    In your example, you said something that you later thought might have hurt you friend so you felt guilty. The feeling guilty is an emotion. You felt guilty as a reaction to what you had said. It was your action that you can label as good or bad. The guilt was your reaction to how you thought your friend felt. The guilt appears to tell us we need to look at something that we have done. You said, “Inappropriate was what I felt”. I disagree with that. Inappropriate may have been how you acted, not how you felt. Your action was to say something that you later decided may have hurt your friend. Your feeling of guilt was to tell you to look at if you may have hurt your friend. That is a good thing, if you must label it as good or bad. To use your words, making a fool of yourself is an action that brought on the embarrassment which was a reaction to your own thoughts. Thoughts aren’t feelings. Thoughts can cause feelings. The behavior lasted only seconds or minutes, the thoughts about that behavior lasted for weeks. The ego loves us when we punish ourselves because it keeps us separated from others.

    Depression is anger turned inward. I am very familiar with that one. You even helped me with our emails back and forth at Christmas to come out of the depression that I had put myself into because of my thoughts about the past. If you want to label something, label the thoughts that sent me into the past but not the emotions. The emotions and the pain that I was feeling spurred me to do some more work on myself and I came out of the depression a lot sooner than I have in the past. The depression was there because I needed to look at myself and release the past again. It isn’t as if I haven’t done it before. Depression, for me, is a signal that I am punishing myself again by getting bogged down in the past rather than living in the present.

    I don’t know if I have adequately expressed myself or if I have added to the confusion. I could let that thought affect my self-worth and say I am a horrible person because I can’t communicate and explain myself so that others can understand but I am not. That is an example of how we can allow our thoughts to affect us. Again, thoughts are not feelings. Thoughts do affect feelings. If you want to label something as good or bad, label those thoughts. Label our inner critic. Or don’t. We have lessons to learn from all of this. Thanks for helping me to think this through.

  19. job

    there are so many monks already..maybe I’m the newbie here..still need to learn more from you guys..

  20. @ Patricia: Wow - that was certainly in depth, and definitely you have given me a lot of think about. You are right of course, I’m still falling into the trap of labelling emotions as good or bad. But then again, I find that there is a lot of help as appropriate and inappropriate…perhaps those two labels are a bit different from good or bad…Hmm… I have to think this through myself. Thanks again.

    @ Job: Thank you :D

  21. Barbara

    Hi Albert,

    First of all, I think everything Patricia said about emotions is valid. But I also think there are times when emotions can seem appropriate or inappropriate to the one experiencing them as well as how an observer reacts.

    I also think there is a further, if more subtle distinction. There are times when one reacts so quickly in a situation they can be unaware of what they are feeling and so label it anger when there were possibly other emotions, a series of emotions even, before that. What they then see is just this outer expression of what they are calling anger.

    Maybe this is better said: the first reaction is a feeling of hurt at a slight that is familiar but not readily conscious, then maybe indignation “how could they?”, only to arrive at anger of “I hate this situation/person” when they really do not want to relive and feel the hurt of old. So the initial two emotions got a little lost as they changed from one thing to another in rapid fire sequence.

    I think that may be when one starts to feel the inappropriateness of an emotion in a situation. Which causes things to get overblown in attempts to sort things out, making things even more inappropriate.

    So maybe it’s just confusion that triggers a judgment of approriate or inappropriate, not being able to identify each emotion as it appears. Result? One feels “wrong” about sitting with the final emotion.

    Just some thoughts based on what I have experienced.

  22. Hi Albert.
    I value the depth and intensity of your self-reflection. As you imply, self-examination is the key to even more meaningful self-discovery. We can each discern what works or doesn’t work for us at a given time and molt from the skin of emotions we had created that no longer really fits.

    I also appreciate your reference to the Tao Te Ching. That is without a doubt, one of my favorite books. If you haven’t already, I would encourage you to read or listen to Wayne Dyer’s new book of essays on the 81 verses of the Tao. His book is Change Your thoughts, Change Your Life.

  23. @ Barbara: That was very insightful wow! I think it ties more into what I’ve half written for the advanced emotional mastery series and it really blows me away.

    @ Liara: Thank you for that comment. I love the Tao Te Ching, and I’ve also purchased a copy of Dyer’s new book - but I don’t know, I don’t think his reflections are very good for that particular book - I have a feeling his interpretations are quite flawed. So I never got around to finishing it.

  24. Hi Albert,

    I particularly identified with some of the distortions that have been going on in my mind. For a long time, I preferred to see things as black or white; all or nothing. My mental filters were also making me very miserable.

    Thanks for sharing so much about CBT, something which I’ve wanted to find out. It is a long article no doubt, but is definitely a quality post!

    With much appreciaiton,
    Evelyn

  25. Nur

    Just a thought. Isn’t meditation, i.e observing one’s breath or even chanting enough to find peace.It will, in time create a distance between emotion and further create stillness, which leads to peace and self-understanding. What I am asking is , is inquiry really necessary?
    .
    Further how do we ever know if our self-enquiry is in the correct direction. Emotion and the mind are super complex, we could never know, unless we leave liberated and manage not to recreate the pain. But something else will arise. Won’t meditation and quiet, take us closer to our truer nature of peace, letting all emotions, even ego based happiness fall away. Like a natural peeling of emotions. Just curious. What do you think?
    In meditation, we recognise the emotion and see it. And like you say at the beginning of the post, this correct labelling is the first step
    And further meditation will let the emotion dissipate. Hence, is or isn’t meditation enough?

  26. Nur

    Also , Congratulations. You just crossed 2000 monks!!!

  27. @ Evelyn: Thanks Evelyn - try playing around with CBT and let me know how you go. As you can see from my discussions with the other readers in the comments above, CBT works beautifully for some situations and not for others, so I would love to hear your perspective if you want to share. :D

    @ Nur: Hey - I’m not saying whether this is necessary or not - I’m just giving another tool to add to your toolbox. This is just me, I’m not making a statement on the value of CBT, but I use it as a short term thing, and meditation for the long term. As in - if my car tire bursts, I put a big sticky patch on it that allows me to drive for a little while, but eventually I will need to really fix the tire. Of couse, CBT is backed up by loads of research that shows it is permanent. So my own experiments with it have only started seriously a few weeks ago - I can’t say for sure if it is permanent or not.

    Thanks for the support too! :D

  28. commonsensekid

    Working thought Alchemy for Mortal Mankind

    The ingredients for metamorphic thought substance action appearance.

    Evolves from the effects of the caused patterns of truths adherence.

    Transmuting fears and superstitions will give you full clearance.

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    Working with creative indwelling spirit performance.

    Executing living love truth, reversing ignorance.

    All from good thought focus persistence.

    Alchemy’s substance continuance.

    Love must have dominance.

    Spiritual pay is relevance.

    Spend expectance.

    Live prudence.

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    ~~~Commonsensekid~~~

  29. Nur

    Hey Albert.
    Was just curious. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Guess am gonna have to try both CBT and meditation now ;- ) .
    God bless

  30. Albert, you don’t have to agree with Wayne Dyer’s views on the Tao (or anyone else’s, for that matter). I bring that up as it is through listening to other interpretations that you begin to truly uncover your own. It is understood that by realizing what you disbelieve, you naturally bring yourself closer to what you do. This makes a particular phase of your journey worthwhile. Reading is great for sparking meaningful debates!

  31. @ Commonsense Kid: You have got the soul of a poet, what can I say?

    @ Nur: No problem ;) Watch for my next post, it’ll give my experiences with CBT :D

    @ Liara: Thanks for that - Have you read Byron Katies a Thousand Names for Joy? Her interpretation seems to be a lot purer…her husband Stephen something also has a good interpretation I think. Definitely, I’d love to have a cool debate with the Tao with anyone, but my understanding is extremely limited :D

  32. Cathy Crovis discusses the short comings of CBT in her experience.

    http://www.ripplesofimprovemen.....-10-years/

    It’s point 2 of 10.

    This is also a way of pointing you all to her blog - it’s about the personal change aspects of being an activist. Which I think is a very important topic. And she writes personally and well. So I want to point people to her.

    Evan

  33. Thanks for that Evan, it’s interesting to see all the responses to CBT. I’ve had a couple of emails from people who swear by it and say that it has lifted them out of chronic depression and so on. I’ve put my opinions in my latest post, would love to hear your perspective on that :D

  34. A very thought provoking post about spiriual enligtenment and how to better onself through thought processing and behavioural shaping techniques.

  35. Thanks six pack! :D

  36. Hi Albert - thanks for this post and also for the link. Sorry for not dropping by earlier to thank you but I was having a bad time. Like you, I drink and smoke too much when I feel down.

    The silly thing is, when I was recovering from PTSD, I learned to deal with it in a healthy way - eg. walking, exercise and meditation. And I’m beginning to wonder that if we use things to help us get well, sometimes it’s harder if we become unwell again, because the activity reminds us of being ill?

    I have also been attacked on my blog. The worst one was where the commenter said that I’d made lots of business mistakes because I was an idiot. And I must admit, I did begin to question myself, but as you said, it’s dangerous to overgeneralize.

  37. Hey Cath. Ouch, sorry to hear that. Hope you are feeling better now. That’s a very interesting point - I don’t know the answer because it hasn’t happened to me. I guess it might be different for each individual though.

    These commenters can get pretty nasty, huh? The good news is, after a while they don’t bother you anymore. :D

  38. Colorado

    Hi Albert,

    I appreciate your posting on CBT. I too have found CBT incredibly valuable. To my surprise I’ve noticed that people have differing (and sometimes very strong) views on this. I agree with the person who stated that it’s one tool in a tool box. I’ve wrestled with many of the questions posted here: does it get to the ‘deep stuff’, what about the subconscious, what about the meta-analyses suggesting it was no more valuable than other therapies, etc. What I finally realized is that the process brings me a deep sense of peace. I tried various types of therapy over a period of 20 years which left me ‘feeling’ better in the short term but not ‘getting’ better in the long term. My pain educing belief structure and automatic negative thoughts were still more or less intact. After only a few weeks of training with a CBT therapist I found myself questioning and re-framing my pain-creating beliefs. In turn I started to almost immediately feel better. What made this different from other therapies is that the noticing-questioning-reframing process became more entrenched and stronger over time – no therapist required. As this became habitual, I noticed the many of the pain-generating core beliefs I previously held about the world were more or less abolished. Applied over time, CBT has eliminated much (but not all) of my suffering. It has also changed the nature of suffering when it does arise. Seeing clearly that I’m generating my own emotional pain allows for a VERY different experience of suffering than believing others are ‘doing it to me’. It’s much less intense and generally on the verge of being dissolved. Aligned with this is the understanding that my concerns are never about another person. It’s just not possible. Without exception, I reference my story of another person and then use that story to generate pleasure pleasure or pain.

    Well, I’ve said more than I intended when I started…

    Thanks Albert, for a great posting.

  39. Colorado, that was an amazing comment, thank you for that. I’ve been struggling with the same questions as you have - does it work for deeper issues, and so on? My follow up post came up with my answers - but my conclusion (as mentioned I have not been using it for that long) was no. But in your experience it was a resounding yes, so I’m going to continue using CBT. Only problem is, my other tool in my toolbox (that was me who said it above, hehehe) is emotional work, and I know that emotional work leads to permanent change and on deep levels. So my motivation to try CBT for longer periods of time just isn’t there. Then again, it could come down to individual differences - some prefer working with thoughts, others with emotions, and so on.

    Thank you once again for sharing, it was a great read and I am not exaggerating or being nice. Have a look at my follow up, if you could, and I would love to hear your opinions.

    http://www.urbanmonk.net/280/h.....echniques/

  40. Bewitched

    The content of your programs is so very meaningful. Among many other interesting topics, you’ve come down from your mountain. I find the material so rich that every time I drop by, I discover something so powerful. Wade & you has been my spiritual growth curriculum!

    Respectfully,

    Terry

  41. You talk about CBT versus old world thinking. Personally, I believe many of these thoughts are the same thing, the only difference is that CBT is a “NEW” label on older ideas and beliefs.

    Once again, the main thing is to do what works for you and to constantly move in the right direction.

    Take care

    Mr Positioning (Stanley F. Bronstein, Atty, CPA, Author and Professional Speaker)

  42. @ Bewitched: Thank you so much! That is really high praise, and I deeply appreciate it.

    @ Mr Positioning: (Cool name, by the way!) Again, you are right. I’ve come across similar versions in many older traditions - finding an clearer perspective, etc. CBT is the most comprehensive I’ve come across, and that is why I chose to follow that system. Thank you for your comments!

  43. Odgie

    Albert

    Thanks pal.

    D

  44. You’re welcome man ;) Keep this post bookmarked, because a lot of the upcoming posts will build off this one.

  45. Thanks Albert.

  46. You’re welcome :D

  47. Martin

    Albert, I found your website this morning and have read several articles. Not only are they interesting and to my mind insightful but they are genuinely helping me at a very interesting time in my life. It’s incredible how relevant all this is to me right now.

    My own thought about emotions and feelings - they are ALL good….in the right place and time….everything about me was/is a way of trying to find survival/safety/health/happiness…..I used the best tools I had at the time to achieve those needs (working up something like Maslow’s hierarchy?)…unfortunately my best tools THEN might have some reason outlived their effectiveness and might actively block me from achieving the next stage of my development….or new - but eeerily familiar life circumstances might invite me to regress to former coping mechanisms that aren’t good for my health and development….

    My dark and demonic inner-critic was trying to save me from what it perceived as a dark and demonic fate by self-censoring and trying to make me “get it right”….”IT” (part of me) felt my survival depended on it. Maybe my survival depended on being right then, maybe it just felt like it, but in 2008 my survival doesn’t depend on being right any more and my happiness is certainly compromised by a need to be right all the time!

    Feelings are good, emotions are good…they’re embraced in a dance towards happiness….partners…..

    Martin

    ps. I think Jung’s typology might hold some of the answers why people see things so differently….some of us rely primarily on thinking, others on feeling….we tend to repress some of the opposite “function”……maybe even distrust it…..until we’re ready to grow……it’s all good…..fly with all engines balanced!

  48. Thank you for that Martin - I think you have a very poetic touch to your writing. I know how you feel with the critic, and yes the critic is very often trying to help us in a very strange way. I’ve have to investigate Jung’s typology some more - I have always been very curious as to why different people take to different systems. Thank you again for the comment.

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